Tea with Heather Webb
I’m excited to welcome Heather Webb to Tea and Infamy. I’ve been a huge fan of Heather’s since I read her first novel, Becoming Josephine, and I’m privileged to call her a friend. Heather is the USA Today and international bestselling author of ten historical novels, including her most recent Queens of London, The Next Ship Home, and Strangers in the Night. In 2015, Rodin’s Lover was a Goodreads Top Pick, and in 2018, Last Christmas in Paris won the Women’s Fiction Writers Association STAR Award. Meet Me in Monaco was selected as a finalist for the 2020 Goldsboro RNA award in the UK, as well as the 2019 Digital Book World’s Fiction prize. Three Words for Goodbye was a Prima Magazine’s 2022 Book of the Year. To date, Heather’s books have been translated into seventeen languages. She lives in New England with her family and two mischievous cats.
I’m a massive fan of Peaky Blinders, so I was intrigued when I learned you were writing a book about a gang of female thieves set in London. How did you first hear about the Forty Elephants? What drew you toward Diamond Annie (Alice Diamond) as a character?
I first discovered them while researching something else entirely–I don’t even remember what it was! I saw one line in an article that mentioned an all-female shoplifting ring that began during the Victorian era. I got that familiar shiver of excitement that hits me when I realize I’ve stumbled upon a great idea. I have to admit, I also loved Peaky Blinders and have always been interested in organized crime stories, so you can see how Diamond Annie, queen of the Forty Elephants, drew me in as a character. I really enjoy examining characters that push the boundaries of propriety and social mores, morality, and the law. Characters creating their own rules tend to be quite nuanced and fascinating.
How did you go about researching a book like this? I was fascinated by the skills and strategy of the Forty Elephants and that the gang had been around since the Victorian era. Were you able to do boots-on-the-ground research in Elephant and Castle? Elephant and Castle is a little different than it was in Alice’s day. Were you able to get a feel for the place and what it would have been like for Alice and her gang when they lived there?
I took a couple of trips to London and walked the Elephant & Castle neighborhood as well as Lambeth and Southwark. They’re a little grittier than the more high-end neighborhoods in Mayfair, Kensington, and SoHo of north and central London, but they’ve gentrified quite a lot in the last thirty years, so “gritty” today isn’t anything like it was then. I also was in touch with the Crime Museum at Scotland Yard and, of course, scoured bookstores and the internet for any books I might find on the subject. There aren’t many, but I did happen across a couple of books written by Brian McDonald, who is a gangland expert, as well as Lilian Wyles’s memoir, which was such a fun discovery!
Alice Diamond and Lillian Wyles are historical figures, but Dorothy and my favorite character, Hira Wickham, are fictional. What was the decision to include them and not just focus solely on Alice and Lillian?
Honestly, I heard Hira’s voice in my head first, before the others! I added fictional characters to the mix because it allowed me, as a writer, to expand the story and offer different perspectives of what life was like for women in the 1920s in various social classes. I really enjoy writing multiple points of view for that reason. Most of my books have more than one protagonist.
You don’t shy away from the violence, not only the violence done to the women, especially in regards to Ruth, but also what the women were capable of. It was not easy to read. What do you want readers to take away from Ruth’s story and Alice’s? Do you think that Alice and Lillian did enough to help Ruth? And do you think that Alice was justified in taking her revenge?
I think the takeaway here is that violence was common in the underworld in 1920s London. It was a means of survival for Alice Diamond and her ring of women. Many of them lived in desperate situations at the mercy of the violent men in their lives–often gang members themselves, traumatized war veterans, or tough fathers–so learning to fend for themselves was a must. Ruth’s demise underscores this point. It’s hard to say whether Alice and Lilian did enough to help Ruth. They both carried a lot of guilt, but they also realized there was only so much they could do to save a woman who wouldn’t meet them halfway with no sense of self-preservation and who believed she deserved what was dealt to her. If I were Alice, I’d say she was absolutely justified in taking her revenge on Ruth’s boyfriend. As the song goes, he had it coming.
If Alice had the chance, would she have made different choices? Or does she truly have no regrets?
Alice tells herself she has no regrets, but I think it’s just her way of not confronting or processing some truly difficult emotions: sadness and loss, self-doubt about her actions, and the underworld in which she lives.
Both Dorothy and Lillian are constantly being underestimated, Dorothy because of her looks, and Lillian because she’s a woman doing what has traditionally been a man’s job. How does success count against women either because they enjoy and excel in traditionally feminine pursuits or because they are stepping outside of those norms?
What a question! This could be a thesis dissertation, but I’ll simplify my answer by saying that fear, ignorance, and (sometimes) jealousy is the root cause of why women have been held back, underestimated, and unable to excel at the same rate as men for centuries.
Your novels have ranged from biographical fiction (Becoming Josephine, Rodin’s Lover) to a retelling of Phantom of the Opera, and now to the 20th century. Do you have a favorite time period and why?
My favorite date range is the 1880s-1918. I really love the Belle Epoque, or the Gilded Age, up through the Edwardian era and the end of the Great War. The artistic movements, the burgeoning women’s rights movement, the music and clothing and inventions, the industrial revolution, and spiritualism are all so appealing to me. The world was irrevocably changed during this forty-year span.
What is your process for when you are thinking about what might be your next novel? Do you have a drawer or a spreadsheet filled with ideas?
I do! I have a “book ideas” folder where I stockpile ideas as they come to me. I’m not into spreadsheets, so I have a collection of Word Docs. There’s this weird thing that happens when I’m considering my next book. The idea that “I must” write next sort of steps forward in line and presents itself to me. I know that sounds insane, but that’s exactly what happens! It’s as if the ideas are alive and tell me when they’re ready to come into being.
You also write with Hazel Gaynor. How do you balance writing with a partner and your own solo writing career?
Hazel and I write a book together about every two years or so when we’re struck with a great idea. We so enjoy working and promoting together. We have an absolute blast. Balancing our solo projects with our collaborations can be tricky at times in terms of deadlines, but we’re both really flexible and hard-working women who are passionate about what we do, so we make it work!
What is next for Heather Webb?
I have another collaborative novel with my bookwife, Hazel Gaynor, coming this October called Christmas with the Queen. It’s set during the early years of Queen Elizabeth II’s reign, 1952-1957, and it’s about a royal chef and the correspondent to the BBC with a past history meeting again by chance in the halls of Sandringham, the estate where the royals celebrate Christmas. It’s a gorgeous, escapist love story full of new beginnings and hope. I have a solo project I’m working on, too, for a 2026 release tentatively called The Hope Thief, about the last woman who owned the Hope Diamond and a fictional jeweler who becomes obsessed with the necklace and the idea of a curse and the very bad luck it brings to both women.
Are you a tea drinker, and if so, what is your favorite tea?
I am! Honestly, my favorite is a simple good ol’ fashioned black tea, preferably the British blend, so it’s nice and strong, but I also love a good cinnamon tea or Christmas tea, too.
Thank you, Heather! Queens of London is out now at your favorite bookstore!